Mariangela Stagnitti: From Italian Knight to QLD Community Icon and Business Leader

GEORGE: All right, we are back for another episode of Raising the Bar – where we storytell excellence in Queensland property. My guest today: Mariangela Stagnitti. You said that very well.

MARIANGELA: I practiced.

GEORGE: You’re Italian. I’m Greek. It’s, you know, same same.

MARIANGELA: Sort of similar.

GEORGE: Yeah, exactly. I’m going to read what I’ve got here to kick us off. You ready to do this?

MARIANGELA: Sure am.

GEORGE: All right. Most people in finance spend their careers chasing numbers. Mariangela has spent hers chasing people – building community, empowering women, and being honoured by the President of Italy for doing it. Today on Raising the Bar, we sit down with one of the most quietly extraordinary women in Queensland finance.

Mariangela has spent over 40 years in banking and has been privileged to support countless individuals and companies establish themselves in Brisbane and across Australia. Mariangela served the Italian community for over 23 years, with 16 of those years as the publicly elected President of the Committee for Italians Abroad – written in Italian, and I’m not game to say that. Do you want to say it for the people?

MARIANGELA: [Speaks in Italian]

GEORGE: That one! Yeah. For Queensland and the Northern Territory, providing community initiatives and diplomatic support in collaboration with the Consulate of Italy.

In 2022 – so four years ago – you were bestowed the title of…

MARIANGELA: [Speaks in Italian]

GEORGE: Thank you. By the President of the Republic of Italy. An honour that has only ever been given to a handful of women in Australia. And you host Brisbane’s Annual Italian and Hellenic Business Networking Lunch, which has been a sellout event every year. In the last couple of years, you’ve had Karl Stefanovic as well, which is really cool. I know you’re friends with him.

MARIANGELA: Yes, yes.

GEORGE: Last bit to read, and then we’ll get into the fun stuff. Also – fun fact – you were a radio announcer on Brisbane’s 4EB Italian program back in the mid-eighties.

Welcome to the Raising the Bar podcast, where we storytell excellence in Queensland property. I’m your host, George Sourris from Empire Legal.

MARIANGELA: Yes. Too long ago to think about.

GEORGE: My goodness. We’re talking well before podcasting existed.

MARIANGELA: Oh, so you were before your time.

GEORGE: Yes. You were the original podcaster. And you started your banking career as a batch clerk. Yes. And 40 years later, being honoured by the President of Italy. We met through a fellow Italian – Leo Di Pinto.

MARIANGELA: Oh, Leo Nado. Yes.

GEORGE: Shout out to Leo. He connected us up. I believe I knew who you were. We do some work with Leo and he’s like, “You have to meet my friend.” And then we went for a coffee and the rest is history.

MARIANGELA: Yeah, that’s right.

GEORGE: Well, first of all, congratulations on your achievements.

MARIANGELA: Thank you very much.

GEORGE: Every word I’ve written is from the bottom of my heart. You are the definition of flying under the radar.

MARIANGELA: Thank you.

GEORGE: You’ve achieved some monumental stuff. The whole point of this podcast is quite literally to raise the bar. We’re in the property industry, right? You do lending. And obviously we do the legal side of it. We’ve worked together for a few years.

MARIANGELA: Yep.

GEORGE: Became friends – started as work and now we’re friends.

MARIANGELA: Yes.

GEORGE: This industry has all sorts of walks of life in it, and we only want to have the best of the best on here. The whole idea is for anyone listening to get some gold nuggets, get some value. And obviously I want to share your story, because I believe you’re extraordinary.

MARIANGELA: Oh, thank you.

GEORGE: And that’s the standard that we want in Queensland, and for the people that choose to work with us.

MARIANGELA: Yeah. And look, when you are in this industry and you are there to help people – and you don’t look at people as a number – it’s a whole different vibe. It’s a whole different thing. And you don’t even have to promote yourself. What you do, your kindness and your understanding, and your willingness to help – that’s what sells you and what brings the next generation. I deal with the second and third generation of clients now, and that honours me. It’s like my dad – he’s a retired builder. For people he built for 40 or 50 years ago, we are now getting the grandchildren. Because the grandfather said, “No, no, no, you’ve got to go to Stagnitti and Sons. You can’t go to anyone else – he built my house in 1973.”

GEORGE: In New Farm, right?

MARIANGELA: In New Farm. Classic. And my dad still has the file. Cash deal.

GEORGE: But look, that’s a testament to your character, right?

MARIANGELA: Yeah.

GEORGE: So not only do you have your parents’ generation of people that you’ve helped – I imagine what probably started as the Italian community – and we’re going to talk through that as one of the points. Then there’s your generation and then there’s the next generation.

MARIANGELA: That’s right.

GEORGE: People don’t come back and stay with you for decades unless you’re doing something right.

MARIANGELA: Yeah, that’s right. And you don’t realise it at the time either. The other side of that coin is all the new arrivals – all the young Italians I dealt with 10, 15, 20 years ago. They came on a working holiday visa and I was able to assist them when I was sitting as President of Commites. They’d come to me for help, and they were my responsibility. And still are, in the sense that I’m still referred a lot of business through those people. Now they’ve got their permanent residency, their citizenship. I help them with buying a property, buying a business. And for me, I sit back and think – what would my father have been if he’d had someone like me and you, helping to structure his future goals back then? They’ve achieved quite a lot, don’t get me wrong. But imagine now – these young people having someone like me in their life as their banker, and you, helping with their contracts. English is not their first language, but here we are helping them buy their first property.

GEORGE: It’s funny – as you were speaking, I recall you’ve introduced multiple people to us, a few of them Italian, with English as their second language.

MARIANGELA: That’s right.

GEORGE: To Chanel, our practice manager, for assistance. And we were talking through stamp duty, and if there were any exemptions that could apply – helping these people get on their feet.

MARIANGELA: That’s right. And that’s a whole section we also have dedicated to the work you’ve done, not only with migrants, but also with women in particular – which we’re going to unpack.

GEORGE: To your point before, and then we’ll jump into it – I remember my mum telling me stories of my grandparents coming out from Greece. Couldn’t speak English. And Mum said she recalls as a little kid – like seven or eight years old at Morningside – they had a fish and chip shop and a milk bar. She was reading the mail and translating it.

MARIANGELA: Yeah.

GEORGE: Because English wasn’t her first language. They were speaking Greek at home. And you think – you’re right. Imagine the difference between my mum as a seven-year-old girl trying to help her parents in the shop, versus someone like you. You are the biggest quiet achiever I’ve ever met. I remember when Leo introduced me to you, he’s like, “You don’t understand – this lady, she has things from Italy.” Excuse my terrible Italian accent. But it’s true – you should be proud of what you’ve achieved.

MARIANGELA: Thank you. Thank you. When you talk like that… When I first started in my first job at the bank, I was a teller. I had my own queue of all the Italians, and I was at New Farm – born and bred – and they would come and stand behind my teller’s box. I’m of Sicilian heritage, so I speak Sicilian dialect quite well, better than standard Italian. And the branch manager would say to me, “MA, you’re in Australia – speak English.” And I’m thinking, oh my God, I’m going to lose my job. Meanwhile, my queue would get bigger and bigger, and everyone’s giving me food, baking biscuits.

GEORGE: Oh, the best.

MARIANGELA: Just beautiful stuff that doesn’t exist anymore. How lucky am I to have experienced that? And that was the beginning of my career – they then created a role for me at the bank that required me to speak Italian.

GEORGE: Couldn’t speak English.

MARIANGELA: I’m getting goosebumps.

GEORGE: That is wild. Couldn’t speak English. So, okay. This is literally my first point. Perfect. So we’re talking about the journey from a batch clerk. You start as a teller, basically. Is that the correct terminology? Batch?

MARIANGELA: No, batch clerk.

GEORGE: Tell me – it may be naive – what’s a batch clerk?

MARIANGELA: So back at the time – and some of the audience who are my generation would recall this – a teller had a batch clerk. The batch clerk was the one that would grab the cheques. Remember the cheques that used to be deposited?

GEORGE: You know what, when I started in law about 10 years ago, it was pretty much one of the first times I’d ever had to use a cheque. Thank goodness for PEXA and electronic banking now. So all the juniors these days – we used to have physical pieces of paper, bank cheques and trust cheques, and it was a bit of a nightmare. Go on.

MARIANGELA: So you’d have bank cheques and normal personal cheques, and we would have to run them through a machine. Physically type $27.13, and then we would have to tally up. At the end of the day, you had your cash deposits and your cheque deposits, and they had to tally up to what the teller had as incoming and outgoing. So the batch clerk was the person that did the cheques – working alongside the teller, reconciling everything.

GEORGE: Wow. Manually?

MARIANGELA: Yeah.

GEORGE: Wow. And back then there was a lot, hey.

MARIANGELA: Well, that’s how business was run. That was standard. There was no internet banking, there was no internet. This is how it was done. This was situation normal. And I was part-time. So even then, we had no superannuation because we were part-time. Yes, we worked for the bank, but part-timers had no rights. My job was 11:30am till 5:00pm, because the bank would open back then at 9:00am and a lot of businesses would actually deposit in the afternoon, not the morning.

GEORGE: Yes. We do them in the arvo’s after the settlements.

MARIANGELA: That’s why – that’s actually why we’re sitting here in Spring Hill. You strategically decided to move here so you could quickly run down to the city.

GEORGE: Yeah. Because we were still doing paper settlements when we started. And yes – every afternoon after the mad rush of settlements, we’d be running up to CBA to do the Office of State Revenue cheques and pay the agent commission. We had sometimes two or three runners – me back in the day, then my sister, then the junior lawyers. They’d be running around the city settling everything. Now I can sit at the computer, press a few buttons, and it’s instant.

MARIANGELA: Yeah, it’s great. But back then, after we would balance the cheques, there would then be shift work in the afternoon where they’d type in all the cheques and sort them into their respective banks – Commonwealth, ANZ, NAB. Then at 8:30 or 9 o’clock at night, there’d be a bank exchange. Those cheques would physically be taken by a delivery driver to be processed at each respective bank. So imagine – there were hundreds of people employed doing this. And obviously, with modern times, all those people were then out of jobs.

GEORGE: Yeah. But that’s how banks operated. The local community relied on the branch so much more. Where you knew the branch manager, you knew everyone. Even when we started, only about 10 years ago, we were at Westpac in the Valley. We walked down and I knew everyone in that branch – it was a very small branch, and we relied on them for our settlements every day. But even the respect that a branch manager brought to that community was something else.

MARIANGELA: Yes. I recall, many years after I joined a bank, I met the State Manager. His first job was at the Commonwealth Bank Fortitude Valley. And he went to weddings, he went to christenings – because that was the respect that the Italian community of New Farm and Fortitude Valley, Bowen Hills, and Spring Hill gave him as the manager. Because he would give them loans. He helped them. Even though some couldn’t speak English – just his kindness of helping them. There was a gentleman that had a business in Fortitude Valley who would be the translator and sometimes the guarantor. So that was a big deal back in the fifties and the sixties.

GEORGE: Well, I mean – communities like the Italians, the Greeks – that’s how they started. All people when they come here, whether it’s Indian, Chinese, whatever – that’s how these communities survive.

MARIANGELA: Yes, that’s right. Because there was no Google Translate. Now you can put an AirPod in and it will do a live translation. You can chat in different languages. It’s unreal.

GEORGE: I don’t even own AirPods. I’m very eighties still.

MARIANGELA: But you know what? It is true – the great circle of life. This person in the community was respected, went to the weddings, helped all the Italians and the wider suburbs get on their feet. You do that now.

GEORGE: Yes, exactly. It’s the great circle of life. And now you are helping migrants come in, helping women come in, educating them to make good decisions.

MARIANGELA: Yeah. But even my mum – she was 17 when she came here from Sicily. She travelled 30 days on a ship. Couldn’t speak the language, didn’t know who was who. These ships were warships that had been converted to bring people over from England. So it started in England, came through Italy, got to Sicily, through to Naples, and then came through what we now know as Africa – through that strait – and on to Fremantle, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney. And then the train from Sydney to Brisbane, getting off at Hamilton.

GEORGE: With no English.

MARIANGELA: With no English. And then go to the bank to set up a bank account. Because there was an Italian man who had been here for a few years and would help them – handle all the bureaucratic side of things they didn’t know. And I’ve got my mum’s original passport. When they arrived in Fremantle – and I was there last year, they’ve got an Italian museum now, dedicated to the migration of Italians – it was quite touching. It was quite emotional for me, because my mum’s always told us these stories, and to see where she landed, how she was treated… they were herded through like cattle. That’s still there. That’s now a museum. And I actually walked the path that my mother walked in 1958. As a 17-year-old. And here I am, last year as a 59-year-old woman, thinking – how did she do this?

You can’t even fathom it. And my mother’s passport – even the description noted that she looked sad, that the whites of her eyes were yellow, her teeth were yellow, her gums. She didn’t look healthy. She looked depressed. All written in English. And here they are, thinking they came to the land of opportunity, and this is how they were described – like a refugee.

GEORGE: Yeah. Well, look – very similar journey with my grandparents on my mum’s side. I believe my yiayia, my grandmother, came on her own on a ship. I’m pretty sure it stopped in Egypt for a while. Then they finally ended up getting to Australia. And my papou, my grandfather, was brought over to work on the Snowy River project. A lot of Italians and Greeks – that’s how you got here. And then they worked as labourers in the middle of nowhere. That was the journey. So it’s a blessing that these communities exist – where you could get somewhere like New Farm and find this icon in the community helping people assimilate and Australianise. It is cool.

MARIANGELA: It’s beautiful. And they didn’t even know that’s what they were doing. It was just helping the community get by.

GEORGE: That’s right. So let’s talk through this first point a bit more. You’re working at the bank in New Farm – right in the heart of it. I’m guessing somewhere near the New Farm Deli or something.

MARIANGELA: I was.

GEORGE: And you were there for what, 20 years?

MARIANGELA: No. I was at the Commonwealth Bank for 30 years. I was at the New Farm branch for 10 years. It was like I was forgotten. But back then, banking wasn’t really a career – it was a job. But it was an honour, especially for us with an ethnic background, to have your daughter or your son work at the bank. It was a big deal. It was like working for the government. If you got a job at Brisbane City Council, you were there forever.

GEORGE: And the community grabs onto that, right? “Oh, you can help with money – that’s what you do. You can help me with my business.”

MARIANGELA: Exactly. And you know, I was a teller, then worked into customer services, stayed there for 10 years, and then put in for a job on the relief staff. I felt that was my way out. I did that for a few years – covering local branches around Brisbane, not going out into the regional areas. I didn’t want to do that. We had what we used to call internal relief.

GEORGE: So you’re like a substitute teacher, but for banking.

MARIANGELA: For the branches. You’d go plug in, fill headcount – be a teller, a customer services officer, or even act as branch manager. I did that for a couple of years, and then I put in for a role in migrant banking.

GEORGE: Naturally on the path. Tell me more about that.

MARIANGELA: So we had migrant banking – Commonwealth Bank was probably the first bank to have it. Back at the time we had an office in London, an office in Singapore, and an office in Hong Kong.

GEORGE: CBA did? I didn’t even know that was a thing.

MARIANGELA: Yeah. They weren’t branches, they were just offices. The one in the UK basically dealt with expats coming back to Australia, or Europeans wanting to come to Australia. And then they tapped into the South African market – CBA had an office in Johannesburg. That’s what they then created as migrant banking. There was a lady of Serbian background who could speak Serbian, Yugoslavian, Russian, Ukrainian – she basically looked after that whole Eastern Bloc. And then there was an Asian lady as well. Then they created another role, and I put my hand up for it. I remember going for the interview and the boss said to me, “Why would I give you this role?” And I said, “Why not?” And I’m thinking, please let me get this job – I can speak Italian, please, please, please. And he just took a punt on me. I did it for 20 years.

GEORGE: Was it specifically because you had the Italian language? Was there enough of a community, enough of a client base?

MARIANGELA: It was the new arrivals. Italians from South Africa, from Kenya – there’s a big Italian population in Kenya.

GEORGE: Never knew that either.

MARIANGELA: From Kenya. A lot from Egypt. They all tapped into the UK office, because a lot had their money invested offshore. The South Africans at the time had very strict rules and regulations. A lot of the Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, and Germans who lived in South Africa had bank accounts in their mother countries – in Greece, Italy, et cetera. They were allowed to transfer money out of South Africa into those European countries, but not directly to Australia. Because at the time they weren’t allowed to migrate to Australia. So this money would go around the world before it would come here. I did that role for all of Australia.

GEORGE: Wow. You pioneered this?

MARIANGELA: I had no idea at the time. It was all uncharted territory. The only bank that had that. My colleague Mary dealt with all the Russians, Ukrainians, Yugoslavs and so forth. I did all the Italians – whether they came from Canada, the UK, wherever. It got quite big within its own little environment. But at the same time, it connected me with the multicultural area of the Lord Mayor’s office, with the Premier’s Department, with all the immigration agents at the time. Brisbane was very small then, investment-wise. And we’re not even talking Consulates, who obviously covered Italians, Greeks, all walks of life. So you were building this really unique multicultural network.

GEORGE: That’s right.

MARIANGELA: And at the time, I became President of Commites. So if I met you and you were a CEO of an Italian company coming through the bank – whether it was through the UK or the Bank of Italy – and it came to me as an inquiry, the first thing I would say is, “Are you bringing any staff?” And you’d say, “Yes, I’ve got 15 engineers coming and we’re going to be working on Legacy Way.” So they all needed bank accounts – there’s your banking business. But then with my other hat, representing the Italian Government, I’d say, “George, you also need to register yourself as an Italian abroad. You’re changing your residency for visa purposes.” So for me, it was just hand in hand.

GEORGE: Both sides.

MARIANGELA: And I’ve got the gift of the gab, so it wasn’t hard. Between you and me, we can chat all day.

GEORGE: I do know that.

MARIANGELA: I didn’t wake up one morning and go, “Oh, I’ve got to do this.” It was just me being me and saying, “This is your responsibility – you have to register as an Italian abroad because you’re changing your residency and for tax purposes, you have a tax file number attached to your visa.” I had to learn all of that. And from that, I created educational pieces. I tapped into the Italian Consul, into an immigration agent. I asked a lawyer I was working with to become an immigration agent – we didn’t even have one in Brisbane that spoke Italian. So I begged his boss, I said, “Please – I’ll provide you all the business. Trust me, you’ll make money.” Because they had to charge for it, obviously.

GEORGE: Well, it was a necessary service. These people needed a partner like that.

MARIANGELA: And I wasn’t licensed and I didn’t have the knowledge of what was behind all these visas. You’ve got to be careful – you can’t give out the wrong information. I can give you all the bank information you want. That’s my lane. But that’s where you’ve got to partner up with good people.

GEORGE: A hundred percent. And so every Monday for nine years, you did seminars and workshops?

MARIANGELA: For nine years, I had no life. And we’re not talking Zoom meetings – face to face, at the Commonwealth Bank. We had a dedicated area in the flagship CBD branch.

GEORGE: Is that the same one on the corner now? Bottom of the Queen Street Mall?

MARIANGELA: The very same. We had a beautiful little coffee shop set up. The bank would provide water and espressos. I was so lucky. I got an accountant involved, an immigration agent, the Italian Consul. Then I grew it bigger – had a local policeman involved, because a lot of these young people arriving didn’t comprehend the legalities of living here.

GEORGE: Let’s spend just a minute on that, because I had the biggest culture shock of my life in my mid-twenties when I went to Greece for the first time. We went there after my papou passed away to sort out his affairs with my dad. And I saw how they live – free, different challenges, a very different world. I saw them all riding around on scooters and motorbikes with no helmets, no safety gear. Parking the scooter at the front door – not in a special bay. And I thought, if these people came to Australia, they wouldn’t even realise – you actually have to wear a helmet, and there are designated bays. So things like that, helping them assimilate – that’s so critical.

MARIANGELA: Yes. And then there were the rumours going around – like that if you fathered a baby to an Australian citizen, you’d automatically get citizenship. People were literally believing it. Because Italians, like Greeks, tend to stay away from institutions. “Don’t trust her – she’s the bank. Don’t trust her, she’s jealous of you.” That’s a European mindset. But here we are in Australia, actually helping you with no agenda.

GEORGE: Yeah, that’s right. Every Monday night for nine years – that’s wild.

MARIANGELA: Myself and a lawyer who was also an immigration agent, the Consul – and I went through three Consuls over those nine years. CBA let me do that, and I’m so grateful. It created a massive brand for me, a massive network. And Commites became the first in the world to do that – to care for young people coming to Australia. Then it spread to Sydney and Melbourne. But I had created a team – we pioneered it here first.

GEORGE: In the world. I’m processing everything you’re saying.

MARIANGELA: We did a guide called Prima Fermata Queensland – “First Stop Queensland.” Done through Commites, funded the first round by the Italian government. Just a simple guide: how to set up a bank account, how to get your tax file number, how to find a rental property. You don’t realise the importance of information like that – how it changes someone’s life. It’s different now. Google changed the game. The internet changed everything. Now you go ask AI, it’ll plan your trip, do anything.

GEORGE: And we had COVID in the middle of all this as well.

MARIANGELA: So for me, I was at another bank by then – the one I’m at now. And the responsibility of the Italian community remained, because under Italian law I could only do two mandates as President and then I had to take a break for five years. When COVID hit, I rang up the Consul and said, “What are we doing?” He said, “I’m in your hands – I don’t know.” And I was part of a group – with a Greek representative, a Chinese representative – invited by then Prime Minister Scott Morrison to represent our ethnic communities in a monthly meeting to see how we were all tracking. It was really well organised, what the government did. So I would report back to the ambassador and to the consulate.

I remember the Prime Minister saying people could access $10,000 of their super. Well, a lot of these kids didn’t have it because they were being paid under the counter. And then COVID hit – you had to pay rent through internet banking. You couldn’t use cash. How were they going to survive? A lot of them were under a sponsored 457 visa through restaurants, and those restaurants were closing.

GEORGE: Big knock-on effect.

MARIANGELA: And I’m a mobile lender, so I was allowed to go to certain places. I was doing appointments in car parks, in parks. Getting wet ink signatures on the bonnet of a car. But business went on as usual – you still had to buy property.

GEORGE: Essential service.

MARIANGELA: A hundred percent. But with the Italians, this was a first for everybody because they’re all under visas. Schools closed. A lot on student visas couldn’t go back to college – they’re all on 20 hours a week of work. Once you shut that restaurant, that little coffee shop, these kids had no jobs.

So myself and the Consul worked very closely together with the embassy. At the time we had an ambassador who was well-connected – she’d been the ambassador in Qatar – so she reached out to Qatar Airlines and organised an agreement: they could get a return fare back to Italy. But it wasn’t that easy. You had to pay for it, and a lot of these kids only had cash. And cash couldn’t be used. So I’m not exaggerating when I say that 2,000 Italians had to go back to Italy. Just from Queensland – I had Queensland and the Northern Territory.

GEORGE: 2,000 of them. And that in itself sounds like a mission.

MARIANGELA: You have no idea. You had to partner with an airline, build a pathway to get them there. And a plane can’t leave Brisbane airport empty – you’ve got to have at least 60% of seats filled. We had Italians holidaying in Fiji, in New Caledonia – they all had to come via Brisbane. So it was massive. Then I reached out to the Lord Mayor’s office, and they were very kind – they allowed us to use a number of buildings in the city that were student accommodations. A lot of these people were going to be homeless, literally sleeping on the street. We couldn’t allow that.

I got together with a number of restaurants and we put together a roster. “If you’re going to open Monday, then I’ll bring my chefs to work your place on Monday.” We had to diversify – you were no longer fine dining, you had to do takeaway. So you needed more staff. Everyone got together to help everyone. And the calls I got, the support I got – I cannot thank the community enough.

There were some grubby people in the mix, as there always are. But at the end of it, we’re all human. And I kept putting myself in their shoes and thinking – what if my niece was in Italy and this happened? I’d want her to come home. And a lot of the families that did go back – unfortunately they then lost their visas when the government changed the requirements after COVID.

But I cannot tell you the thanks I’ve received over the years since. From Italians who were living in Brisbane, the Gold Coast, the Sunshine Coast, Cairns, Darwin – who had to go back to Italy. The knowledge and experience they brought back from here, they took into their life in Italy. And now they’ve set up businesses – diversified differently – because of the experience they had here. They suffered in the beginning, because they came with the Italian mentality: “I’ve got to work from 11am to 10pm at night? Really? Don’t I get four hours off in the afternoon?”

GEORGE: I was going to say – no mid-afternoon nap and meal?

MARIANGELA: Which is normal over there. They’re not being rude. That’s the culture.

GEORGE: The amount of times I got culture shock in Greece. I remember I had to get a SIM card because I wanted the internet. “Vodafone shop, middle of the island, go there.” I find my way there. Locked. “Come back at 6pm.” It was two o’clock in the arvo. “Yeah, from six till eight, it’ll be open.” And I thought, what the heck? But then I look back now and go – it works. It’s hot in the middle of the day. They go home to their wife and kids, have a feed, go to the beach for a few hours. That’s their family time. And then they go finish the work off, and it works for them.

MARIANGELA: And Italy stops for two hours every day. Bold and Beautiful.

GEORGE: God help us all. Brook speaking Italian. Let’s move on to the second point, because I know between you and me we could talk underwater. This is a point I’m very passionate about: empowering women.

MARIANGELA: Oh yes.

GEORGE: I’ve got some notes here but I might get you to free-run it and then I’ll clean anything up. I know you’ve created a community, done something fascinating where you’ve educated women – particularly, from our chats, ones who’ve maybe been through divorce, the death of a spouse, domestic violence.

MARIANGELA: DV is a huge one. Yes.

GEORGE: Yes. And they’re in a position where they’ve got money, but the traditional husband role always looked after the finances. Which was pretty common, especially for your generation. I think my generation it’s a bit different. Women are more empowered now, through things like what you’ve built, to make their own financial decisions. Talk me through that.

MARIANGELA: When COVID hit, one of the things I had already established was the Italian Business Women’s Network – I’d done that probably six or seven years ago. I sat on the board of a very male-dominated Italian entity, and at one stage the women were asked to pay a contribution to remain on the board. I was representing the bank, so I couldn’t go to my employer and say, “You need to pay $10,000 so I can stay on this board I’ve already been on for 12 years, representing the bank and referring a lot of business.” So we all left – the females. It was quite eye-opening, because I thought – well, there’s nothing for women. What is there for women of Italian background? And I came up with the Italian Business Women’s Network.

GEORGE: And when did this start?

MARIANGELA: It’s in its seventh year now. So rewind only seven years ago, and the culture was still very male-dominated. We’re not here to vilify men – that was culturally just situation normal. But we’re in a different world now. You don’t belong to your husband. And I guess that’s the journey you’ve built, right?

MARIANGELA: Well, my generation did belong to their husband, because they got married at 19 or 20. I’ve never married. My parents never said I had to be. Even now at 60, my father says, “You crazy? You not marry. You stay with me forever.” But he was before his time – that was very uncommon. It was common to get married, have kids, not work. That’s what I had around me. I have had relationships, but they broke up. You cry for a month, think you’re devastated, and then you wake up and it’s like – phew.

GEORGE: Different world, different parents.

MARIANGELA: So for me, as a banker, I would do interviews with husbands and wives – the husband being Australian, the wife being Italian. And I tapped into the Italian Latina female as well, because there are a lot of South American women with Italian citizenship or Italian background. I would see what would go on in relationships. The woman not understanding how life really works in Australia. You’ve got your modern Italian woman who worked. But then you’ve got the one who studied, has two or three degrees, but never really had a job except working in a bar to get through uni. And then you come to Australia on a working holiday visa, do your 88 days on a farm, meet someone, fall in love. That leads to a spouse visa, a defacto visa, then marriage.

GEORGE: Normal progression.

MARIANGELA: But then the reality hits – because you’re still trying to deal with the fact of, are you Italian or Australian? What culture am I taking on? Our parents’ time – your papou and yiayia’s time – they adapted. They didn’t ask questions. They assimilated. My dad’s name is Haralambos.

GEORGE: Oh dear.

MARIANGELA: But he’s Harry.

GEORGE: It’s funny how it comes full circle – we’ve named our son after my dad. So on his birth certificate he is Haralambos. Whereas my dad is just Harry.

MARIANGELA: My dad – Sammy – his name’s Salvatore.

GEORGE: Because those European countries just wanted to fit in. Normalise. Whereas now it’s trendy to keep the traditional names.

MARIANGELA: And it’s respect for the country. My father, when he had to make a choice of staying as an Italian citizen or denouncing Italian citizenship and becoming Australian – he’d already been here 16 years. My mother had to give up her Italian citizenship. That was what the government wanted them to do then. But I’ve got dual, because I was born to an Italian citizen. I was born in ’66, born here. My mum became Australian in 1972, and I became Australian with her.

So when I go to citizenship ceremonies – and I get invited by a number of Italian clients – I cry. I’m like the old lady in the back, bawling my eyes out, because I don’t even recall giving oath to this country. And now I’m essentially giving that oath for myself. And I think: how lucky are they? Because they come here as Italian citizens and now have the privilege of becoming Australian citizens. It’s all because of our foremothers and fathers and the sacrifices they made.

GEORGE: That’s right. It’s very close to home for me – and even closer to home for you. You lived through it. I can only imagine what our parents went through, what their parents went through. They were the ones who pioneered this. When they said goodbye, they said goodbye for good. No internet, no calling.

MARIANGELA: We had to ring the lady on the corner and let her know to go get my nonna, because we were calling in half an hour on Sunday night. We’d get together and we’d speak to nonna for half an hour, rain, hail, or shine. A little village in Sicily on the mountain. But getting back to the women’s education part – is it not fair to say you’ve got over 80,000 in your network now?

GEORGE: My data’s a bit off.

MARIANGELA: 80,000 in seven years.

GEORGE: Yeah. I remember when we met, you were telling me, “Oh, I’m off to Adelaide to do this seminar,” and I had no idea what you meant. You just said, “Oh, I do this thing.” So keep going – spend a few minutes on what you’ve built.

MARIANGELA: I was approached by a friend of mine who’s a lawyer, also of Italian heritage. We were having a coffee, talking about education, and I said, “It’s quite hard to explain things in interviews now for privacy reasons. I can’t say, ‘Your wife has 15 Afterpay accounts, or a tab at Louis Vuitton.'”

GEORGE: Or Sportsbet or whatever.

MARIANGELA: Exactly. I’ve got your business and I’ve got her business, but you’re together. And as an Italian, that never happened in my family – my mum knew exactly what my dad did and vice versa. My mum didn’t even have her own bank account for many years, because she didn’t need it. My father would pay all his workers. He had anywhere from 10 to 20 labourers. My mother, every Friday on school holidays, we’d go to the Commonwealth Bank in Fortitude Valley, cash the cheque, put it in a little bag, and she would do everyone’s pay. Back then, my mother had no English, did grade four, and here she is running my father’s business. My dad the night before would work out what everyone’s pay was, leave the list, and then my mum, after getting the cash from the bank, would walk us home up Brunswick Street with the pram. She’d buy me potato gems from Coles – that was my treat. And she would count the money – to the last cent.

GEORGE: That’s adapting out of necessity.

MARIANGELA: And she would say to me, “How nice are they here at the bank? Like, they helped me – look how patient.” And I’d look over the teller’s counter, all timber and bars, and think, “Oh, she’s beautiful – the bank teller.” Years later, I was that person.

GEORGE: And now that’s you helping the next generation.

MARIANGELA: That’s right. And with Nadia – my friend the lawyer – she came up with this amazing concept. Our first event was at her law firm, and we got about 10 people. We thought it was a flop. But we kept going, did about four or five before COVID hit hard. And then whenever I’d travel down south, I’d tap into the Italians there.

GEORGE: Elevator pitch me – what exactly is it and what does it do?

MARIANGELA: Basically, I don’t prepare slides. I don’t prepare anything. I just walk into the room, introduce myself – whether there’s 10 ladies or 40 ladies – and it’s open conversation. “Why are you here? Your name, what do you do, why are you here?” And everyone learns. Because I know what I’m like in seminars with slides – you can’t see, things go too quickly. This is conversation. I learn from you, you learn from me. I might be embarrassed to bring something up, but you’re not. And then I’m comfortable because you’ve brought it up first.

It’s a room full of ladies, all around Australia – I’ve done it in Adelaide, Sydney, and obviously here in Brisbane where your core is. We just touch on things like: how to read a contract, not to fall in love with just the prettiness of the house. The white picket fence dream might be full of white ants.

GEORGE: Oh my God. It’s New Farm or it’s Ascot – there’s a bit more to it than that. Is it fair to say this is traditionally for ladies who’ve maybe gone through divorce, DV, or the death of a spouse, and they now need help – want to buy a property, want to make sure their money is working for them?

MARIANGELA: It’s giving them confidence. A lot of women come out of a difficult divorce not knowing where to start. I had one – she was married 36 years. She was 18 when she got married, and one day she just woke up and didn’t want to be married anymore. Her children were grown up, she was a grandmother, she was working part-time. She came out of that divorce quite taken aback. Because traditionally the husband was the breadwinner – you’ve got the lifestyle, the nice car, the beautiful house. But she actually woke up at 52 or 53 and felt she had more to offer. She made a deal with him and he said, “You’re not getting the family home, you’re not getting this, you’re not getting that.” She also had elderly parents who couldn’t understand why she was leaving her husband.

Anyway, they came to an agreement that she would buy one of the investment properties. And she wasn’t even given the right legal advice – because at the end of it, she could have taken him for half of everything. She was the one running the business without even knowing it.

GEORGE: And it’s not a plug at all because it’s not our core offering, but we do handle binding financial agreements and related advice. Predominantly it’s family lawyer territory – we’re property lawyers. But whoever’s listening: that advice is critical. You’ve got to get it early. And it’s wonderful that through these seminars and conversations, it becomes an education piece – “You don’t have to be bullied into signing this. You need to get your own advice and make an informed decision.”

MARIANGELA: She was working part-time, and in her head she thought she could never buy a property. She came to one of our seminars. Afterwards she contacted me, and she had no confidence at all. Looking at her, she was stunning. She said to me, “I can never buy a property. I can’t buy him out.” And I said, “Do you mind if I just run some figures – do a borrowing capacity?”

He wanted her to take on the debt attached to the property as well. I’ll just throw numbers out – say it was worth a significant amount with a $200,000 debt. The LVR was just below 60%, and I thought, “I can get her a bit of a discount on the rate.” She was going to live in it, her son was going to move in and pay board – but at the time, I couldn’t use board income under policy. That’s only changed in the last couple of years. So I wanted her to be independent from that, to have the confidence to know she could do it on her own pay. Some red tape to get past, but we got it through. And on the legal side, the law firm helped with the contract, the title transfer, the spousal transfer, the refinancing. There’s a lot you don’t know until you’re in that situation.

GEORGE: And it’s emotional too, right? It’s easy for me sitting at my desk going, “Oh yeah, another related parties transfer.” But there’s a lot of emotion behind that. And depending on the situation – even if people are amicable on the way out, it’s still hard. That’s where family lawyers and independent advice are so important. Even on the nicer end of the scale, it’s still emotional, still challenging, still overwhelming – especially if you’ve never dealt with it before. So props to you for what you’ve built for these ladies, helping them get the knowledge to make good decisions rather than being pressured into something that doesn’t serve them.

MARIANGELA: But it’s also our culture. A woman gets married, has babies, stays home. I’ve got friends that became nurses in their late forties or fifties, because their father wouldn’t let them. You had to get a job as a secretary – that was the girl thing to do back in my time.

GEORGE: I’m thinking Serena Russo – I remember listening to her on a podcast. My dad sent me to her.

MARIANGELA: Yes. Her story about not being allowed to pursue what she wanted. That was the culture. “You’re going to get married and have babies.” And it’s just a different world now. I look at my nieces – I’ve got a 28-year-old and a 16-year-old. They’re ambitious. Emily just got married last year – she and her husband are going overseas, they’ve bought a property, they’re living their life as a young married couple. Whereas before, if you didn’t have a baby within 12 months of getting married, “Oh my God, you can’t have babies! What’s wrong with her?” From both sides of the family.

But the modern Italy – I do a lot of education pieces with modern Italian women too – they’re now inheriting the businesses. The fathers are leaving the business to the daughter rather than the firstborn son. Because, as one entrepreneur in Italy said to me, “I trust my daughter with my life, not my son. Because my son is married, and his wife is the one behind him going, ‘Oh no, don’t do that for your father.'” The modern Italian daughter is educated, doesn’t necessarily want to get married, wants to be part of the family empire, the family legacy.

GEORGE: It’s always been the firstborn son or the sons.

MARIANGELA: And I found all this out through the Italian Business Women’s Network. Because through COVID, I tapped into an accountancy firm in Italy run by women – found them on social media. I got an Italian female immigration agent based here in Brisbane, myself, an accountant, a female accountant in Italy – “How to do business in Australia.” Our first seminar got 800 people.

GEORGE: Like I don’t even know how that happened.

MARIANGELA: And compare that to when I started the Monday night thing at CBA – six people would rock up and I was thrilled. We called it “Fare Business in Australia” – how to do business in Australia. I had clients who were already my clients, experienced with the bank. I got a female CEO running a big Italian company – her experience of being scared to do business in a foreign country was very relatable. She spoke openly: “It’s hard to do business in Italy, let alone in a foreign country. But when you have people you can contact who do the running around for you…” And mind you, we were all doing it for free. It’s not a business I’m running – it’s philanthropic.

GEORGE: You’re doing it to give to your community. A community that gave to your family.

MARIANGELA: To me. Exactly. But you know what the highlight of my life has been? My youngest niece – who’s now 16. When she was about nine or ten, they had to Google someone at school, and she Googled me. I remember one night at family dinner she goes, “Zia – I Googled your name and I can’t believe what you do and how you help people.” She said, “At school today we had to Google someone, and I just wanted to Google you.” I said, “Do you know how to spell my name?” She was eight. She goes, “Yeah – and then your photo came up and I called my teacher over and she couldn’t believe it.”

I used to do a date night with my nieces and nephews where we’d go to an Italian restaurant. Good until they could read – then they’d start ordering everything on the menu! And I would take them to restaurants where the waiters were guys I had helped. And I wanted them to see that Australia wasn’t their home in the sense that these men had been born here – like their nonno and nonna, they had migrated here. The business sponsored them, so they’re here.

“They can’t speak English?” And I’d say, “No, they’re learning. They’re on a visa, sponsored by this business. What they do here is a skill they brought from Italy – they’re a pizzaiolo.” Cool life experience, opening their minds. Now as adults, they understand when someone has an accent – this person came here on some type of visa, or they’re here on a holiday and enjoying our country.

GEORGE: And when I met up with you last year with my wife and we went to an Italian restaurant in the Valley, you knew everyone. That was a testament to your character and what you’ve built.

MARIANGELA: Yeah.

GEORGE: On that note, let’s move to the last point – the Italian honour, and what legacy looks like.

MARIANGELA: So Carla Zampatti was the first woman ever to receive this honour. In 2011, the then President of Italy decided that women should be eligible to be knighted as a Commendatore. Traditionally it was given to men in the army and navy – men of a certain standing. He decided that women fight in wars too – why shouldn’t they be recognised for what they do? And this is 2011. Only 15 years ago.

GEORGE: That’s right – we’re not talking 50 years ago.

MARIANGELA: That’s why there are not many women with this title. In Australia, since Carla Zampatti’s passing, I was the only one for a time – until last year, when another two women received it. And this year, another two. So in Australia now, there are five of us.

GEORGE: Congratulations. And explain it to me as a layman – this is like the equivalent of being knighted?

MARIANGELA: It’s like a knighthood. For a lady, it’s equivalent to a knight. And this comes from the President of the Republic of Italy. You’re nominated – in my case by the then ambassador and the then Consul. They pushed me forward. Normally you work your way up through certain levels. But I was brought straight in at Commendatore, which was quite unusual. And it was very emotional.

My grandfather was a Cavaliere of the war – he was a prisoner of war for four years in Germany with his battalion. In 1987 or ’88, he was given his knighthood. So he’s buried here in Brisbane with the title Cavaliere. A different level, of war. Commendatore was then extended to women since 2011, and there are not many in the world who hold it – I think not even 200.

GEORGE: Goodness me.

MARIANGELA: And I’m very proud because I’m also the first of Sicilian heritage to receive it. I didn’t know this until I was in Sicily two years ago and spoke in parliament there. And when the chair introduced me, he said, “The first of Sicilian heritage.” And I thought – really? Apparently yes.

GEORGE: Congratulations. You were recognised for what you did. You didn’t work your way through the ranks for this – you’ve just been doing this thing, every Monday night for years. All this philanthropic work. It’s nice to be recognised.

MARIANGELA: At the end of the day, you get your good days and your bad days. You just keep going. And people are nasty too. You’ve got the haters, you’ve got the lovers. Not everyone likes me.

GEORGE: Bugger the haters.

MARIANGELA: But it takes a long time to deal with that psychologically. You can be great at your job, you can put your heart and soul into something, and then one person’s negativity sends your world crashing down – “Why doesn’t that person like me? What did I do? How can I better myself?” And then you just wake up one morning going, “I don’t give a damn.”

GEORGE: Those people don’t get to sit in chairs like this. There is imposter syndrome to an extent – when I started this podcast, I thought, “Who am I to start a podcast?” But on the flip side, why not me? We’re on this journey to raise the bar. If people don’t start having conversations like this, recognising things like community service and philanthropic work – not just about putting more money in your pocket – we lose something important.

I’m very passionate about everyday people having a good experience in their property transaction. From the conveyancing solicitor, to the banker or broker, to the building and pest inspector, to the real estate agent – we should all be held to account. Because this is people’s livelihoods. This is all their money, most of the time. And if it goes wrong, it can be game over.

MARIANGELA: And a number of my clients are buying a property in Australia for the first time – they could never afford to buy in Italy. And they’ve saved their deposit, the full 20%, while paying rent. That’s years of hustle. And what burns me is if they end up with the wrong representation – a cheaper conveyancer, someone offshore, whatever. These people have worked over a decade slogging it out, living out in the sticks to get by. And then they end up in a place where the representation isn’t good enough. Their deposit is at risk. I fight very hard to prevent that.

I pre-approve all my clients. “George, you can spend $1.2 million. Don’t go over. Don’t ring me asking to push it. Behave at the auction. $1.2m limit.” And for me, it’s very important that I align myself with good, honest representation. A real estate agent and a banker have to align together. I’m not taking business away from you – I’m actually helping you get business and better yourself as a brand. But if you start doing seven-day finance clauses? Valuations are taking three weeks, building and pest is taking 10 days. That doesn’t work.

GEORGE: And I just say to them – look, our job is to service that client. Our legal obligation is to protect that client’s interest, buyer or seller. It grinds my gears when a real estate agent rings me going, “They’re going to lose the deal, there are other offers.” And it’s the same old story every time. If you can’t give me 24 hours for a lawyer to run their eye over this contract – not a week, 24 hours – to make sure they’re not about to make a mistake, then shame on you. That’s not vendor management – that’s pressure. And that kind of garbage is what gets you in trouble.

MARIANGELA: Exactly. And you’ve got to play your strengths. I’m lucky that my clients trust me and listen. That means the world to me.

GEORGE: Same for us. And on that note, I’ve got one more thing for you. The golden nugget. For first-time listeners – just one nugget of advice for the world, whoever’s listening. Doesn’t have to be property-related. It can be anything at all. You’ve already dropped a lot of nuggets in this episode. Just one thing to put a bow on it.

MARIANGELA: Love your haters. With age, I’m becoming very particular about who I allow into my life and who I share my time with. But if I know that you don’t like me – especially within my community where everyone knows everyone – I now go out of my way to say hello to you. Whereas before I’d walk away. Now I walk straight up: “Hi George! How are you? How’s the family?” It’s a head spin for you, because you’re like, “Oh, she’s actually not that bad. She’s actually a nice person.” Not that I need you to like me – but for me, it’s about my mental health. You’ve got to look after yourself.

GEORGE: Love your haters. That’s the first time we’ve had that as a golden nugget on this podcast. You’re not being a bad person – you are actually addressing the situation.

MARIANGELA: Look, hating someone is pretty hardcore. It’s a bad word. These people that don’t like you or me – I heard this amazing expression from a lady called Emily: “I get secondhand embarrassment for them.” And I thought, yeah. I feel sorry that you have this hate in you. It’s not going to affect my life – I’ve got the best life in the world. Don’t let it invade your space. Though of course it does affect you – it’s human nature. It affected me for a good two or three years recently. And that’s normal. But then I woke up one day, and after speaking even with my priest – I’m a Catholic ambassador for the Catholic Mission – I thought: what is it I actually want? Is it respect? I don’t want that person to hate me, because hate is such a heavy word. I’d rather you ring me and say, “MA, let’s have a coffee and clear the air.” If I’ve said something that’s come back to you through four or five people, you should have the courage to come to me directly. Like I’d come to you. And if we don’t like each other after that coffee, fine. But at the end of the day, we’re both professionals.

GEORGE: It takes two to tango as well. You could be extending the olive branch and they’re not interested. And that’s their journey – you’re on your own journey.

MARIANGELA: Exactly. Protect your peace.

GEORGE: Love your haters. That’s a good tattoo, hey?

MARIANGELA: There you go.

GEORGE: I reckon we round it out there. Thank you. This has been wonderful. Thank you for what you’ve done for your community, for the property space. You’ve introduced me to some people who’ve helped me on the mission I’m on. And thank you for trusting us with your clients.

MARIANGELA: Thank you. For anyone that wants to find me – just Google me. Just like my niece did. Or ask any local Italian restaurant – they’ll probably know who I am.

GEORGE: True. For anyone in Brisbane that needs a brilliant banker who will fight hard for you and actually knows your name – you know where to find her. Mariangela, thank you.

MARIANGELA: Thank you, George. You and your team are all incredible. And it means a lot that I can put my clients in your hands with complete confidence. You put your clients first, and your staff are understanding and relatable. I remember when I first met you – I said, “I’m sure you’ve got five or six Italian lawyers lined up to look after your clients.” And you said, “Look, I’m Greek, just from across the Mediterranean – but if you want to give us a go.” And we looked after your first client and here we are. And look – it’s not even about that. If we never got another one of your clients, it doesn’t matter. Because you’re doing good stuff, we’re trying to do good stuff. When good people come together, good stuff happens.

GEORGE: You build a team around you. And that’s why you’re in this chair. On that note, rock and roll. We’re done. Thank you.

MARIANGELA: Grazie.

GEORGE: Eufharisto. That’s thank you in Greek.

MARIANGELA: Of course you do.

GEORGE: Thank you. Thanks, Mariangela. That was an awesome episode.